Talks to Watch

How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist

1.5M views · Jul 21, 2008 · 3:00 · 0 HN recommenders · 9 mentions · discussed 2011–2021

Jay Smooth's short video on how to tell someone their words sound racist. He argues for focusing on what the person said or did rather than labeling who they are.

Why Hacker News points people here: HN commenters cite it in arguments about criticism, to separate attacking a comment from attacking a person.

“If someone makes a racist comment, attack the comment, not the person.”HN comment, 2011

What Hacker News said 9

Cites itseigenbluesJul 2011

“See the "i'm not calling you a racist, i'm calling your behavior racist" crucial line of distinction.”

Distinction between calling someone racist and calling behavior racist.

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as near as i could read, no one was attacking Noah -- just Noah's behavior, which seems out of line. See the "i'm not calling you a racist, i'm calling your behavior racist" crucial line of distinction. ( this video ) Noah can be a sweet, helpful, lovable teddy bear, and still have behavior that needs to be called out.

in “Noah Kagan and the Faceless Bitch slide” · view on HN
Cites itkliptNov 2011

“If someone makes a racist comment, attack the comment, not the person.”

Attack the comment, not the person.

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> Let's assume for a while that Arrington was really racist Even if that were true, the last thing you should do is call him one. this video If someone makes a racist comment, attack the comment, not the person.

in “Michael Arrington on Racism: The Game” · view on HN
Cites itjamesmiller5Oct 2012

Distinguishes saying something racist from being a racist.

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If you replace the instances of "white men" with "mainstream white culture" his arguments are much stronger and I believe to be his original intent. "And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates." The author is angry that white culture perpetuates racism and privilege, which himself and other cultural minorities are now forced to tolerate at their workplace. His choice of words was obviously inappropriate and while I'm not excusing how his point was said I don't believe it was his intention to make his point using racist statements. This is a classic example of "What you said was racist VS. You are a racist": this video

Cites itpetefordeMay 2013

Advice on telling someone their words sound racist.

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For those of you who think I was wrong to suggest that jellicle's statement was uncomfortably racist: we might have to agree to disagree, here. The vast majority of street food is run by immigrants, and it's a perfect entry point for them to get into the local economy they have chosen to make their home in. People who were born here are smart to use the food truck as a way to test a concept before they try it in a restaurant format. Perhaps we'll see that happening more and more. There's certainly all cultures represented in Portland. Meanwhile, we're all immigrants here unless you come from native background. I don't think the original commenter is a racist person, but his comment comparing food trucks to parasites is uncomfortable at best and shameful at worst. Here's a test: go ask 100 food truck operators if they think some guy on a tech forum calling food trucks "parasites" is racist, and get back to us. this video

in “The Food-Truck Business Stinks” · view on HN
Cites itahelwerFeb 2015

“The venerable Jay Smooth describes a closely-related distinction here[0].”

Explains intent versus impact when calling something racist.

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The developers are not racist. My entire original point is their attitudes and intents were irrelevant. The system they created is very much racist, completely independent about how they felt in creating it; I'm not sure how you can really dispute that. The venerable Jay Smooth describes a closely-related distinction here[0]. Also, when you describe a system as racist that's somewhat different from describing a person as racist, which might be a place we're talking past each other. Re: the culture/race/ethnicity terminology quagmire, the sister comment by dragonwriter explains it well. [0] this video

in “Facebook's Name Policy Strikes Again, This Time at Native Americans” · view on HN
Cites itpetefordeSep 2018

“it's important to keep it focused not on the person but the act.”

Focus criticism on the act, not the person.

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When telling someone that something they said was racist, it's important to keep it focused not on the person but the act. Racism and prejudice is learned, and it can certainly be unlearned. Unfortunately, you cannot unlearn mental illness. this video

Cites itpseudalopexFeb 2021

“The question is about what he said. Not what he is.[1]”

Discusses what someone said versus what they are.

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They didn't say or ask if he turned into a misogynist. The question is about what he said. Not what he is.[1] [1] this video

in ““Silicon Valley’s Safe Space” has misinformed readers” · view on HN
Cites itpseudalopexMay 2021

“You're turning a discussion about what someone did into a discussion about who they are.[1]”

Discusses actions versus identity in criticism.

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You're turning a discussion about what someone did into a discussion about who they are.[1] [1] this video

in “What Are “Unusual Characters”?” · view on HN
Cites itpseudalopexDec 2021

“What they said and what kind of person they are are 2 different discussions.[1]”

Separates what someone said from what kind of person they are.

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The point was you said it was intended to poke fun at traditional chivalry like it was a fact. But it was just your speculation. We define chivalrous differently apparently. And I never heard of someone trying to flatter a 21 year old man by wishing him a happy 60th birthday. What they said and what kind of person they are are 2 different discussions.[1] Well meaning people accept constructive criticism. I know people who would like what you wrote better. I know people who would think telling them you're sure they didn't mean something was insincere and condescending. The 1st reply that mentioned the attempted joke just said please don't make sexist comments.[2] It was appropriate for an aside on a technical mailing list. The joker could have replied off list if they didn't understand. They doubled down instead like you said. Someone else called it cancel culture and called other people hypocrites. Someone else compared it to witch burning. Someone else implied assuming good intentions meant ignoring anything unintentionally objectionable. The reaction to that was someone proposed a different standard. The reaction to that was trolling. [1] this video [2] link

in “Vivaldi: Violating CoC on forum may close your email account” · view on HN