Talks to Watch

Winning at programming competitions is a negative factor for being good on the job

67K views · Apr 5, 2015 · 1:08 · 0 HN recommenders · 6 mentions · discussed 2017–2023

A one-minute clip of Peter Norvig saying that Google found programming contest success correlates negatively or poorly with job performance. The description links to a blog post discussing it.

Why Hacker News points people here: Used as the go-to citation in LeetCode and hiring debates that competitive programming skill is not a good signal for hiring.

“Peter Norvig discussed an analysis at Google that suggested doing well at coding contests was a negative indicator of job performance”HN comment, 2023

What Hacker News said 6

Cites itkyleschillerApr 2017

“Norvig seems to think it's a negative signal though.”

Norvig on contest winners as a negative job signal.

Full comment

Agree with other comments about similarity to interviews. Norvig seems to think it's a negative signal though. this video

in “A Competitive Programmer's Handbook” · view on HN
Cites itumbsApr 2018

“Peter Norvig indicated that it correlates poorly with on the job performance (at least at Google) [1]”

Norvig says contest skill correlates poorly with job performance.

Full comment

As few comments already mentioned, post college, preparing for this type of thing immensely helps in job interviews. I find it very hard to clear job interviews and in 2017 alone, I appeared for ~25 job interviews. I'm very convinced that competitive programming skills gives you a leg up in job interviews. Many people may already may know this, but Peter Norvig indicated that it correlates poorly with on the job performance (at least at Google) [1]. I wonder why, then, companies still continue to do this style of interviews. [1] this video

in “Competitive Programmer's Handbook (2017) [pdf]” · view on HN
Cites itzerrAug 2020

“Even Norvig admits it has nothing to do with being a good dev/hire”

Norvig admits contest skill is unrelated to being a good hire.

Full comment

> Obviously, each company can't blindly trust the interviewing practices of everyone's previous employer. Yet, they copycat each other on this. > after you've been programming for 10 years ...as I said, you're not desperate enough, so you become picky how you spend your time. > Companies aren't going out of their way to make it harder to hire good employees into their own companies. Lowering the churn rate has a higher priority. > The problems are designed to test CS skills. No, these problems are designed to test CP skills. Even Norvig admits it has nothing to do with being a good dev/hire: this video > How else would you suggest reorganizing the interviews to test for CS skills? How Caltech, MIT, Harvard, ETH, etc... test for CS skills? Certainly not with CP riddles - unless you take a CP course, which indeed is a separate [optional] course at some of those universities for interview preps specifically.

in “A guide to learning algorithms through LeetCode” · view on HN
Cites itMichaelMoser123Jan 2022

“Peter Norvig says they were checking, if taking part in programming contests would correlate with good performance at the job [1]”

Norvig on Google checking contests against job performance.

Full comment

>were hit with antitrust litigation starting around 2010 because they were all involved in colluding to reduce the ability of devs to switch jobs I didn't know that, really interesting detail. >no one wants to admit they don't know what they are doing. Interesting perspective, though I don't know about the vodoo part. They seem to be taking the matter quite seriously, at least google does. Take the matter of competitive programming: Peter Norvig says they were checking, if taking part in programming contests would correlate with good performance at the job [1]; I think having read somewhere that Norvig revised his negative judgement later on, as they had examined more data [2]. (actually that would mean that they didn't act on the data to begin with, well well). These companies are good at data processing, any data that is, at least they seem to be taking it dead seriously (disclaimer: I never worked at google, though I have managed to fail at interviewing there, however i am not sure if i would have accepted an offer ;-) [1] this video [2] link

Cites itnitwit005May 2022

“There was a Google talk some years ago that brought up this same idea with regards to people who did programming contests”

Google talk on contest participants and job performance.

Full comment

There was a Google talk some years ago that brought up this same idea with regards to people who did programming contests: this video

in “Ask HN: What to do about ‘Good at programming Bad at Leetcode’” · view on HN
Cites itnitwit005Apr 2023

“Peter Norvig discussed an analysis at Google that suggested doing well at coding contests was a negative indicator of job performance”

Norvig on contest success as negative indicator of performance.

Full comment

You did emphasize it was the best result, so it's hard to argue that you selected for it. Back in 2015 Peter Norvig discussed an analysis at Google that suggested doing well at coding contests was a negative indicator of job performance: this video Presumably they do well at these sorts of questions, but that doesn't imply the same actual effectiveness.

in “On a Great Interview Question” · view on HN