17.4M views · Apr 3, 2010 · 17:47 · 0 HN recommenders · 20 mentions · discussed 2010–2021
WikiLeaks' release of cockpit footage from a 2007 US Apache helicopter attack in Baghdad that killed a group of men including two Reuters staff, and then a van that came to help the wounded. The video includes the crew's radio chatter and context on the military's initial account.
Why Hacker News points people here: HN cites it as the key evidence of what Chelsea Manning leaked and as an example of civilian deaths in war, with some early commenters disputing how to read the footage.
“For those unfamiliar with the still unprosecuted war crimes exposed by Manning (and published by Assange)”HN comment, 2019
“In case the link is changed, this is what was previously there”
Previous content of a link, now changed.
I believe this is the full, unedited helicopter camera footage. link In case the link is changed, this is what was previously there: this video
Example of soldiers eager to shoot.
killing virtual people in a virtual world - violence, bad. At the same time each and every of us oppresses, brutalizes, tortures and kills in real-life through our hired-for-money agents - governments at all levels. "Come on, let us shoot" this video Games are to blame? Or hysterical propaganada dehumanizing arabs, Afgans, etc... and blessing violence against them.
“Here are some US troops shooting at unarmed civilians, children and Reuters journalists.”
Shows US troops shooting unarmed civilians and journalists.
> What wrong-doing did Manning uncover; what crimes? Here are some US troops shooting at unarmed civilians, children and Reuters journalists. There was never a gun held, or fired except by the US troops... this video This is the reality of asymmetric warfare, where doing your job walking down the street in Baghdad can get you killed. There are 1000's of such incidents we know about thanks to Manning. This happens to be the most graphic and easily understood because it is a video. Other stories are contained in the giant databases and are a couple of hundred words of text. Personally I uncovered a case in Cablegate where the US Ambassador to Nigeria asked for someone to be rendered to the US without going through the Nigerian Courts. This constitutes extraordinary rendition, moreover, this was pre-911 before extraordinary rendition was known to be widespread. If anybody actually looks at the material, you'll grasp its significance immediately. Moreover, there is a good chance with 250,000 cables and countless war logs if you see something significant, you are the only person in the world to have recognised the significance of that piece of information.
“Here is the exact second that freeze-frame above is taken in the collateral murder video”
Exact second a freeze-frame was taken, contradicting military claims.
Provably false. Here is the exact second that freeze-frame above is taken in the collateral murder video this video Compare with the picture that the US military claims is of an armed person link That person isn't carrying anything let along a weapon. At the exact time the US troops say "that's a weapon" (around or just after 3:13) and thus fix the belief that the group is carrying weapons, from the Apache all that is visible in shot are 2 camera men, with cameras. What amazes me is that who ever decided to make this picture didn't go to the effort to at least make a claim that wasn't provably false from the available evidence. It's really hard to prove a negative existential statement, so that would have been on their side.
Offered as example of US killing journalists.
"I mean, Putin straight kills journalists." So does the United States of America. this video The United States government wants to make an example out of Snowden. There's no way he would serve just two years in prison.
“Seen collateral murder [1]?”
Shows what Manning whistleblew on.
> What exactly was Bradley Manning trying to whistleblow about? Seen collateral murder [1]? > Its hard to say that that is not treason. Really? It's so easy to kill the messenger. Not to bring in the emotional aspect of this typical power structure vs. single human issue here, but then treason would be the last word I'd want to use for the guy who uncovered killing of innocents and wrong doings of some (I think most soldiers are not trigger-happy rather good people who love peace) stupid crazy soldiers in our army (who should be behind bars instead!). Let's not forget that we pay the bills for all this. [1] this video
“The Collateral Murder video was most likely watermarked.”
The Collateral Murder video was most likely watermarked. I think the low quality of the video is because the quality had to be degraded so the watermarks can't be seen/scanned. this video
Example of military killing children without evidence.
Could you kindly provide evidence of the threats are you referring to? You are simply saying that the officials should be taken on trust alone? An American citizen who open admits committing a crime gets more due process than a harmless child in some third world country. Do American military men ever have to produce evidence before killing children, as in this video
“They look pretty much civilians to me.”
Counterexample to claim civilians are never targeted.
> But innocent civilians are NEVER OUR TARGET. I'm getting for granted that you are the USA. So in order to avoid never-ending discussions here you go: this video They look pretty much civilians to me. ps. You know, the guy who released this video... Is hiding in an Embassy in the UK because he is terrorised by someone who call him a terrorist , food for thought!
“Shortened version”
The shortened version of the footage.
>> He did not publish raw source material, he published his narrative: He published both. Full Unedited Footage : link Shortened version : this video
“It still sears my mind that someone could be locked in a cage by our own government for exposing this”
What Manning exposed.
It still sears my mind that someone could be locked in a cage by our own government for exposing this: this video (Collateral Murder video) People actually died in that example. I am unaware of anything but hypotheticals regarding anyone killed as result of Manning's "leaks".
“After watching journalists get annihilated by an Apache missile strike, there is not a lot of room for confusion.”
Shows journalists killed in an Apache strike.
> no idea what was in any of the information being leaked After watching journalists get annihilated by an Apache missile strike, there is not a lot of room for confusion. this video
“they fired on a van despite realizing that it had come to pick up the wounded.”
Shows firing on a van picking up wounded and eager gunner.
>>This is war. The video clearly shows that soldiers made a decision made on an honest, although tragic, mistake. Um, they fired on a van despite realizing that it had come to pick up the wounded. Geneva Conventions clearly state that hospitals, both fixed and mobile, ambulances, hospital ships, medical aircraft, and medical personnel are not to be fired upon. this video (You'll also note the trigger-happy attitude of the gunner. He kept begging for permission to engage, and at one point got pretty frustrated that he was having to wait. Like the OP said: chilling.)
The video Manning released that made her the commenter's hero.
She's a hero if someone says she is, and that's all there is to it. I think she was a brave, selfless person in doing what she did, and I'm glad that the US got its ass handed to it in this way. American military crimes are heinous, and the entire nation is doing nothing effective about it. There are millions of people suffering because the American public are too cowardly to confront their own military. So by sticking her neck out and releasing the Collateral Murder videos, she is most definitely my hero. (EDIT: s/Damage/Murder/ - this video: this video )
“For those unfamiliar with the still unprosecuted war crimes exposed by Manning (and published by Assange)”
Shows the unprosecuted war crimes Manning exposed.
I think its pretty clear that she refused to testify out of principle. None of the war criminals exposed by Manning's leaks have been charged or tried for their crimes. The government's refusal to charge the war crimes, which are central to the entire case, completely undermine any pretense of "justice". As usual, the government is using its infinite power to punish those who exposed wrongdoing, while completely ignoring the actually wrongdoing that was exposed. I find it quite admirable that Manning refuses to be used as a tool to further this charade of injustice, at great personal expense. Being held in "contempt of court" is no vice when the court, and the prosecutors, have done everything possible to earn that contempt. For those unfamiliar with the still unprosecuted war crimes exposed by Manning (and published by Assange): this video
“Physically sickening.”
Quotes soldiers dismissing children's presence on the battlefield.
Physically sickening. [Voice 1] Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle. [Voice 2] That's right. ( this video "Battle" my ass.
“Doesn't look very banned to me.”
Notes the video is still available on YouTube.
Do you mean this video, "Collateral Murder", which is currently available on Youtube? this video Doesn't look very banned to me.
“Unfortunately the US is well-known for actually actively engaging civilians.”
Example of US forces engaging civilians.
Unfortunately the US is well-known for actually actively engaging civilians. this video Whether or not that is an isolated incident is irrelevant. The US has a reputation for shooting civilians. The US media doesn't help either, often portraying soldiers shooting civilians even in fiction.
“The man appears to "engage" the helicopter.”
Right, because photo stills from "collateralmurder.com" are intended to convey the ease of identification from a moving helicopter during a live situation? There are other form factors for RPGs: link link link I wouldn't want to be wrong on the fly about whether it was an RPG or a black telephoto barrel that's sticking around the corner aiming at my crew. Presumably I'd use other cues to help decide. The site leaves out stills showing the key decision-triggering factor - surreptitious behavioral cues. Here is one they left out: link The site talks about the cameraman shooting a picture of "whatever is occurring further down the street" but the video, even in slow replay (that the airmen didn't have in the moment), suggests the man is taking cover then popping out to aim at the helicopter. The man appears to "engage" the helicopter. Thinking in context of 2007, that was incredibly dumb: this video Want a picture of an American chopper while you're walking in a hostile zone with militia carrying what even "collateralmurder.com" admits "might be a weapon" and "appears to be a weapon" -- ok, stand in the middle of the street with your camera, wave your obvious press card while wearing your obvious press jacket, and take your picture. Don't duck around corners then share the intel with your gun carrying group. Troops made a call about the RPG vs camera (though certainly doesn't look like a white Canon lens as shown in the website, looks black, and that tube and the way he aim
“see the guy at 3:45 swinging around?”
this video see the guy at 3:45 swinging around? link makes it clearer. Also the US mil report from the time (not a response to Wikileaks, from 17 July 2007, 5 days after the event) - They did have AKM/AK47 and loaded RPG + extra rounds and were hidden around the corner watching, one of their party took pics, link of an APC whilst their friends were apparently readying an RPG to blow them up with. And though it's not proof of anything specific in this case the photog in question, who died, was known for getting "victory" shots of insurgents handiwork.
