2.2M views · Nov 19, 2021 · 15:48 · 9 HN recommenders · 20 mentions · discussed 2021–2026
Not Just Bikes argues that the Netherlands, famed for cycling, is also the best country for drivers. It explains how prioritizing walking, cycling and transit makes driving faster and more pleasant.
Why Hacker News points people here: Recommended as the argument that better alternatives to driving also improve things for drivers, and as an introduction to Dutch urban planning.
“One of the many excellent videos on the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel [1] shows how the Netherlands has done it.”HN comment, 2023
“a channel that really opened my eyes on how terrible urban planning is in america.”
Channel on American urban planning problems
I've been watching a channel that really opened my eyes on how terrible urban planning is in america. this video
“I would recommend you have a look at Not Just Bikes on YouTube”
Car-independent countries are still best to drive in
I think this is due to how car dependent North America is. There are so many aspects that are missed in these pictures or what you are for example experiencing. It's not that you're situation is improving, it's most likely not. But that's not due to car independent cities being bad, it's because changing from being car dependent to car independent is hard and takes time. I would recommend you have a look at Not Just Bikes on YouTube, a Canadian that moved to the Netherlands. He talks about car independent cities in Europe, more specifically The Netherlands and compares it to car dependent North America. Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others: this video . Regardless, I would recommend you check out a few other of his videos, most importantly his series on the US non profit organisation "Strong Towns": link . It think it's about sharing the message that placing public transport, cyclists, and pedestrians in the forefront is better for almost everyone involved, including drivers, and especially people who live in cities and towns.
“Here is a video that explains it further”
Explains forced driving in America
Both are definitely a factor, but don't forget that a lot of the irritate driving behavior is because in America people are forced to drive. Even if they don't want to or really shouldn't be driving, they still have to drive to get around town. Here is a video that explains it further: this video
“For more arguments than can fit in this margin, see”
Why drivers benefit from bike lanes
So the actual challenge is to convince those car drivers that they really should be pushing for more bike lanes, since it really is in their best interest. O:-) For more arguments than can fit in this margin, see: this video "The Best Country in the World for Drivers" (edit: +if you don't have time for an entire video, just watch this one traffic light for single example that exemplifies the story: link ... comments on that video are good too!)
“See this video for how these kinds of policies benefit drivers directly[1].”
Reducing car traffic benefits drivers directly
Most (or at least, a plurality of) people who cycle or take the tube in London also drive a car sometimes; it's not like you have to be wedded to one particular transport mode. Drivers aren't drivers 100% of the time. Reducing motor traffic makes for safer, more aesthetically pleasant streets. You can expand the pavement, have flowers, landscaping, public art, outdoor dining, etc. The air quality is better, the surroundings are quieter, people don't get run over and maimed in collisions. And when you really want or need to drive, there's less traffic around. Nobody likes sitting in traffic jams! See this video for how these kinds of policies benefit drivers directly[1]. The carrot is having a more pleasant city. Everyone wins from that. [1] this video
“One of the many excellent videos on the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel [1] shows how the Netherlands has done it.”
Shows how the Netherlands did it
One of the many excellent videos on the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel [1] shows how the Netherlands has done it. [1] this video
“If you have 15 minutes to spare, watch this video”
Cities for other modes also help drivers
A city designed for other modes of transport is also better for drivers because only those who need (or really want) to drive need to do so. Result, less congestion and more relaxed driving. If you have 15 minutes to spare, watch this video: this video
“Check out this video, it describes Dutch urban planning pretty well”
Describes Dutch urban planning
You might think so, but a flat number comparison doesn't do justice to the vast differences in urban planning. Check out this video, it describes Dutch urban planning pretty well: this video
“Would recommend some people to watch some Not Just Bikes videos.”
Better cycle infrastructure benefits everyone
Kind of weird article. If you want cars to stay out of bike lanes, make them protected like in here in the Netherlands. But also why do people expect to be taken to a bike lane rather than a parking space? Also seeing a lot of ignorance about cycling here in the comments. Would recommend some people to watch some Not Just Bikes videos. Building better cycle infrastructure is better for everyone, cars and cyclists included. Less people die, and cars don't have to deal with cyclists on the road. Ex this video
“Have you seen Not Just Bikes' latest video?”
Why the Netherlands is good for drivers
Have you seen Not Just Bikes' latest video? "Why the Netherlands is the Best Country for Drivers" this video
“driving is actually much faster and more pleasant”
Dutch driving is faster and pleasant
My observations: I grew up in Northern Ontario, where the cities are basically long stroads. Inside of a car, they can be stressful to drive in, as they combine high-speed travel with frequent and awkward turns. God forbid you want to walk or bike next to one of them. The noise is extreme, and the infrastructure surrounding them is horrid. Whether in a car, on a bike, or on foot, they are ugly and soul-crushing. The patio bar next to a stroad isn't going to be people's first choice. I haven't been to the Netherlands myself, but it appears that after moving away from stroads and "car-centric" infrastructure, the driving is actually much faster and more pleasant [1]. It gives me hope at least! 1. this video
“And over the past several decades, they have made vast changes and redevelopments”
Amsterdam also great for driving
I definitely agree with the latter paragraph. But it’s important to note that places like Amsterdam did invest heavily into car infrastructure as well. It’s not completely true that car dependency was staved off by existing road sizes. Like you allude to, the US was bulldozed for the automobile. We didn’t develop around it. Amsterdam was following a similar path until mass protests in the 70s about people being slaughtered by cars. ( link ) And over the past several decades, they have made vast changes and redevelopments that we should have been following as well. And now Amsterdam isn’t just amazing for cyclists and pedestrians… it’s also great for driving. ( this video )
“he made an interesting point that driving is more pleasant in Amsterdam.”
Driving is more pleasant in Amsterdam
That’s why it’s important to help people understand that’s it’s not about eliminating cars entirely, but about substituting significant numbers of trips. The YouTube channel NotJustBikes has gained a lot of notoriety over the last couple of years, and he made an interesting point that driving is more pleasant in Amsterdam. [0] The issue is mainly car dependency not cars per se. [0] this video
“Yet another video from NJB on this topic.”
Average car speeds versus bikes
Yet another video from NJB on this topic. this video Chuck Marohn measured his average speed at rush hour, and found it was about 16km/h ... So despite the roads having a speed limit of 50 km/h or more, his average speed was less than 16, because of all the traffic lights. And this was in a tiny town of only 14,000 people. Incidentally, 16 km/h is the average speed of a cyclist in Amsterdam
“bike and pedestrian friendly cities are also some of the most car friendly ones for this reason.”
Bike-friendly cities are car friendly too
Empirically, most people care more about making the trip efficiently then how exactly it's done. If all those people are motivated to not use cars, think of how much less traffic there will be for everyone else? It turns out that bike and pedestrian friendly cities are also some of the most car friendly ones for this reason. this video
“As a driver you want everyone to be walking, cycling, taking the bus/trolley/tram/train/...”
Drivers benefit when others walk or ride
this video As a driver you want everyone to be walking, cycling, taking the bus/trolley/tram/train/... Why? Because you'd be alone on the road.
“the excellent infrastructure in the Netherlands makes it a very pleasant place to drive.”
Dutch infrastructure makes driving pleasant
That makes sense, the excellent infrastructure in the Netherlands makes it a very pleasant place to drive. this video
“Improving things for non-car users can actually make things better for drivers”
Non-car improvements help drivers too
> […] considering the transit with the lowest capital investment, the bus, is also benefited by car oriented development like a road network with more connections between nodes. 'Improving' car-oriented development has been observed to make things worse: > It is a paradox in that improvements in the road network will not reduce traffic congestion. Improvements in the road network can make congestion worse if the improvements make public transport more inconvenient or if they shift investment, causing disinvestment in the public transport system. * link Improving things for non-car users can actually make things better for drivers: * this video * link * link
“He does have a video called "The Best Country in the World for Drivers”
Fewer needed cars helps those who drive
> I kind of like his ideas (I know the channel), but he’s heavily biased against cars. He’s the “everything could be done on a bike” type of guy. It's kind of hard to over emphasize the the damage they've done, specifically as forms of personal transportation (versus more commercial transport). He does have a video called "The Best Country in the World for Drivers", in which he shows that by reducing the need for cars for most people, actually helps the optimize things for operating a car: * this video And until the ~1920s, societies managed to function pretty well without the streets being taken over by cars: * link I don't see why they need to have total priority with-in cities to the extant they currently do.
“An enlightened self-interested driver would want to increase investment in alternatives to driving”
Fewer cars helps drivers
Even as a driver, if you think about the second-order effects of getting more (other) people out of their cars, it becomes obvious that it would improve traffic for you. An enlightened self-interested driver would want to increase investment in alternatives to driving, since that is the only proven solution for congestion. As a video: this video
