5M views · Dec 3, 2023 · 1:05:20 · 9 HN recommenders · 20 mentions · discussed 2023–2025
Destin Sandlin of Smarter Every Day gives a talk to an aerospace audience, comparing how Apollo was engineered and managed with NASA's Artemis program. He raises concerns about unresolved details, the number of launches and in-orbit fuel transfer needed to reach the Moon, and the loss of institutional knowledge.
Why Hacker News points people here: Commenters point to it whenever Artemis, SLS or Starship refueling comes up, as a candid and critical engineering assessment delivered directly to NASA.
“one of the bravest talks I’ve seen in a while about the lessons of the Apollo program for Artemis”HN comment, 2023
“I recommend you to watch it, it's really good.”
Talk to NASA about Artemis concerns
I recommend you to watch it, it's really good. But as I mentioned in another comment, here is a relatively good AI summary: this video Click on see more, to see 5 minute wise summaries. (Not affiliated with this site, I just use it from time to time)
“one of the bravest talks I’ve seen in a while about the lessons of the Apollo program for Artemis”
Brave talk on Apollo lessons and valid Artemis criticisms
I am not affiliated, but as a fan… Smarter Every Day did a walkthrough with an actual Apollo engineer on the rocket and it was absolutely amazing. Definitely worth watching if you want to understand what this engineering program was up against — it’s kind of insane what they were doing with 1960s tech. link Same guy also have one of the bravest talks I’ve seen in a while about the lessons of the Apollo program for Artemis, including some criticisms that I thought were deeply valid. Much to learn about Apollo from this talk as well. this video Thus very document is the foundation of that talk and I’m sure why this is ending up on hacker news, so credit where credit is due please.
“I recommend this amazing presentation, questioning the basics, and attitude in teamwork, of the Artemis project”
Questions basics and teamwork attitude on Artemis
This thinking, or questioning, is needed everywhere. There is so much security paranoia, that it affects any one, just trying to do something. From setting up a wifi router, to seeing up an email account. Passwords must be used. Walt for 2FA before proceeding. Change your password to include upper lower Roman numerals and at least 5 different fonts... Why? Instead of saying up a website in 15 minutes, there is an hour of preparing to set up a webpage. If I live in the country side, have no neighbors for 50 miles, I must secure my router going to my starlink. Why? Added complexity and regulations, seem to grow around us just as the beurocracies; schools, governments, companies - maybe our lives are just all dependent on the 3rd law of thermodynamics. Higher disorder? I recommend this amazing presentation, questioning the basics, and attitude in teamwork, of the Artemis project: this video
“Also highly recommend this “are we going?” Talk on engineering issues in Artemis”
Talk on engineering issues in Artemis
Do yourself a favor and look up moon landing 4k on youtube. There’s some amazing immersive stuff now: link There’s also a few amazing first person videos from space walks on the ISS: link The footage from Artemis is gonna be incredible. Also highly recommend this “are we going?” Talk on engineering issues in Artemis: this video Which is where I learned about this report from NASA called “What Made Apollo a Success”: link
“The talk compares the architecture and process of the Apollo mission with the modern Artemis mission, and is very critical of the latter.”
Compares Apollo and Artemis architecture and process, critical of Artemis
I came across this document in a talk Destin Sandlin gave to the American Astronautical Society [1]. The talk compares the architecture and process of the Apollo mission with the modern Artemis mission, and is very critical of the latter. I think both hold some great lessons, even for software engineers working on non-critical systems. [1] this video
“Destin from Smarter Every Day gave a talk that addresses a lot of these issues that I found pretty interesting too.”
Addresses many of the same Artemis issues
Destin from Smarter Every Day gave a talk that addresses a lot of these issues that I found pretty interesting too. this video
“Read the comments (especially from NASA engineers).”
Concerns about Artemis and courageous engineers versus poor management
Destin (from Smarter Every Day Youtube channel fame) has concerns about the next NASA mission to the moon (named Artemis): this video Read the comments (especially from NASA engineers). It's pretty interesting that sometimes it takes courageous engineers to break the spell that poor managers can have on an organization.
“After watching this video i have serious doubts about the whole moon program”
Raised serious doubts about the moon program
After watching this video i have serious doubts about the whole moon program this video Reminds me a little of the SLS which makes no sense at all other than preserving some jobs. The Space Shuttle was also ruined by military requirements that never materialized.
“Smarter Every Day gave a talk directly to NASA that raises some of the same issues. It's a good one.”
Talk directly to NASA raising similar issues
That's a fun read. Also the first time I've heard of the company Aerojet Rocketdyne. Did they come up with that one while playing beer pong? Smarter Every Day gave a talk directly to NASA that raises some of the same issues. It's a good one. this video
“Just saw this referenced in a Smarter Every Day Video [0]”
Video that referenced the Apollo report
Just saw this referenced in a Smarter Every Day Video [0] and it's now on my to-read list. [0] - this video
“Which discusses the new moon landing program and how there appear to be many unresolved details and low openness in discussion”
Discusses Artemis unresolved details and low openness
This is likely linked here after it was shown in Smarter Every Day - I Was SCARED To Say This To NASA... (But I said it anyway) [0]. Which discusses the new moon landing program and how there appear to be many unresolved details and low openness in discussion, as well an explosion in complexity. It reminds me of software development where sometimes people lose sight of the main goal (make a great product / tool) and become fixated on the underlying tech while increasing complexity. In the software engineering world there's a few well known blog posts which seem to encode similar lessons, for example the Things You Should Never Do series by Joel which discourages doing full rewrites. Going a bit meta, one problem with this kind of post is that it's a bit long (87 page PDF) so reading it to make comments or spark interesting discussion takes longer than your typical blog post or news article. I'll probably get started reading it tonight, but there's no guarantee I'll finish it. I love the general idea of learning from past generations and building upon their achievements, although I expect many lessons from this era have already been integrated in our understanding of engineering as it relates to software development. However, maybe there's still value in rehashing this understanding to make sure that hard-won lessons are not forgotten. [0] this video
“He mentioned fuel transfer being a huge unknown.”
Raises fuel transfer as huge unknown
I watched the SmarterEveryDay lecture last night, so I was primed for this story. He mentioned fuel transfer being a huge unknown. this video The other thing he mentioned was the Apollo success playbook (SP-287), "What Made Apollo a Success?" link Link to EPUB version link
“the biggest question mark for me was the number of rockets required to reach the moon _once_ [1]”
Raised the number of rockets needed per moon trip
I find 'rocket science' quite interesting, who not :) But my knowledge is limited to what can grasp from watching the channels discussing the topics every now and then and reading some of the lightweight books. (I find the design and creation of the space suits very interesting). Nevertheless when I saw the Smarter Every Day video the first time the biggest question mark for me was the number of rockets required to reach the moon _once_ [1] There were some other topics from the talk like the cryogenic refueling never done before [2], the orbit around the moon [3]. But for these I cannot evaluate who much of a problem they are. But more than eight rockets for one flight sounds a lot, even without expertise. [1] this video [2] this video [3] this video
“Not realistic and not feasible, more like insane”
Supports view that mission design is unrealistic
Lego should had a few sets featuring the Chinese landing on the moon. Its is looking more and more likely will happen before NASA returns to the Moon. The whole design of mission looks like Boeing too over the decisions...Not realistic and not feasible, more like insane (At correct time...): this video
“Smarter Every Day had a rather interesting video on his concerns with the program.”
Concerns over fueling launches, management and transparency
The reason NASA's current plan is taking a bit longer is it is considerably more ambitious than the Apollo program. If they were only trying to replicate Apollo it would be far easier to do. Smarter Every Day had a rather interesting video on his concerns with the program. this video and they were more about a program design that requires over 15 fueling launches for every trip to the moon, and concerns about management and transparency. I don't think anyone is claiming this issues are lost technology though.
“For another view of some considerations”
Offers another view on mission architecture considerations
As far as I understand SpaceX plan requires dozens of launches in close succession with never-tested in orbit refill, while Blue Origin does not. For another view of some considerations: this video
“Destin from SmarterEveryDay called out some other issues related to the Artemis mission”
Destin called out related Artemis issues
related: Destin from SmarterEveryDay called out some other issues related to the Artemis mission: this video Curious if this is related to the issues that they're now experiencing.
“SmarterEveryDay's criticism[1]”
Criticism about the number of launches required
I wonder if it answers some of SmarterEveryDay's criticism[1]. Like the crazy number of launch required for this. [1] Talking about the Artemis program to the American Astronautical Society this video
“The loss of institutional knowledge and fundamentals philosophical differences seem like they’ll need to be overcome.”
Speech on lost institutional knowledge and philosophical differences
This reads like a “comment” version of Destin’s speech to a NASA group a few years ago [0]. The loss of institutional knowledge and fundamentals philosophical differences seem like they’ll need to be overcome. [0] this video
Timestamped clip to settle a dispute over a phrase
I searched the transcript for "we're going, right?" and stopped it at the first section (here I rewound a little for you) this video I'll address this to the third parties in the room who are not me or you: Click through and listen and if you are convinced it's a question you can go with Buttons840. If you're not convinced it's a question you can go with me. But it'll take you 10 seconds max. Worth it for you to see it yourself. No need to let anyone convince you.
