310K views · Dec 15, 2011 · 1:04:04 · 9 HN recommenders · 20 mentions · discussed 2012–2026
Bryan Cantrill's LISA11 talk on how illumos arose after Oracle closed OpenSolaris. It covers the history of Sun, ZFS, DTrace and Zones, and the diaspora of kernel engineers, with a famous rant about Oracle and Larry Ellison.
Why Hacker News points people here: HN points to it as the definitive, entertaining account of Sun's fate under Oracle, and quotes its Ellison lawnmower advice whenever Oracle behaves badly.
“If you're interested how it came to be check out this epic talk by Bryan Cantrill”HN comment, 2016
“His Larry Ellison rant makes me smile”
Opinion on Sun to Oracle transition with an amusing Ellison rant
grin Here we go... For "laughing at ourselves" and oddities of computer languages, there is "Wat" by Gary Bernhardt: link For an opinion on the Sun to Oracle transition, there is "Fork Yeah! The Rise and Development of illumos" by Bryan M. Cantrill, Joyent. His Larry Ellison rant makes me smile: this video
“If you're interested how it came to be check out this epic talk by Bryan Cantrill”
Explains how the illumos fork came to be
> not a leaked version of it. It's a fork. If you're interested how it came to be check out this epic talk by Bryan Cantrill this video
“goes into a brutally honest rant against Oracle.”
SunOS/Solaris history then a brutally honest rant against Oracle
"Fork Yeah! The Rise and Development of illumos" by Bryan Cantrill this video He starts with a nice history of SunOS and Solaris, goes into open source, then midway through (33:00) he goes into a brutally honest rant against Oracle. Even better is that Oracle was one of the sponsors of the conference.
“it's once again time to re-watch the "Never make the mistake of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison" rant.”
Commenter rewatches the Larry Ellison lawnmower rant regularly
Whenever I hear Oracle mentioned it reminds me that it's once again time to re-watch the "Never make the mistake of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison" rant. this video
“You should also watch his "Fork Yeah!" [2] and "Corporate Open Source Anti-Patterns" [3] talks for full context.”
Context on Solaris, illumos and Oracle
DTrace was deliberately licensed in a way to be incompatible with the Linux kernel. This was commented on directly by Bryan Cantrill on HN [1]. You should also watch his "Fork Yeah!" [2] and "Corporate Open Source Anti-Patterns" [3] talks for full context. [1]: link [2]: this video [3]: link
“This talk is informative”
Informative account of Oracle closing OpenSolaris
Oracle killed OpenSolaris. They literally moved Solaris back to being closed-source. With no justification, even, beyond Oracle not liking open-source. Undoing the massive amount of work the Solaris team made in order to open-source it in the first place. There's no more source code releases for Solaris now. Unsurprisingly, almost all the core Solaris team walked. This talk is informative: this video
“this talk says a lot about what was cool about Solaris, its place in history, the troubles it encountered”
Solaris history, its troubles, Oracle's approach, and open-source forks
If you are interested, this talk says a lot about what was cool about Solaris, its place in history, the troubles it encountered, and what was wrong with Oracle's approach, leading to little-known open-source forks. this video (entitled: Fork yeah! The rise and development of Illumos)
“Bryan Cantrill's discussion is also great”
Cantrill's discussion on Sun's legacy
The great Scott McNealy quote about Sun really resonated with me: > We kicked butt, had fun, didn't cheat, loved our customers and changed computing forever ... and in many ways, it seems like only a "lifestyle business" can really prioritize those over core revenue and growth metrics. Bryan Cantrill's discussion is also great: this video
“You need to listen to what Bryan Cantrill said about his experience at Oracle, before you go there.”
Cantrill's experience at Oracle as a warning
You need to listen to what Bryan Cantrill said about his experience at Oracle, before you go there. > What you think of Oracle is even truer than what you think it is: "Shit mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money" this video > You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle. this video
Cited as support for illumos innovations not backportable to Solaris
It depends on what you mean by "significantly diverge." If you mean "innovate", then yes -- absolutely. We already have tons of evidence of differentiated innovation in illumos[1][2][3] -- none of which can be brought back into Solaris.[4] [1] link [2] link [3] link [4] this video
“There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle.”
Quotes Cantrill's remark on Oracle's lack of nuance
> (that may be a bit too cynical) "You actually don't need to be open-minded about Oracle, you are wasting the openness of your mind [...] As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle." - Bryan Cantrill, this video
“Bryan Cantrill's immortal advice about dealing with Oracle”
Quotes Cantrill's lawnmower advice about dealing with Oracle
Bryan Cantrill's immortal advice about dealing with Oracle: "Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle." this video
“Reminds me of a funny quip that's stuck with me, about "falling into a trap”
Funny quip about Oracle versus Sun
Reminds me of a funny quip that's stuck with me, about "falling into a trap": > [Oracle, as contrasted to Sun Microsystems] It's more like: "Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money ." [...] > If you were to actually have a conversation with a bank --a friggin bank --[...]Whether you believe it or not, you will get a very societally-engaged answer. [...] You talk to Oracle, it's like "No, we don't fuckin' make dreams happen, we make money , that's what we do!" [...] > Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing [Oracle CEO] Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just doesn't--like, mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think "Oh, the lawnmower hates me"--lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle. -- Brian Cantrill: this video
“Oracle is a different beast[1].”
Cited to explain why Oracle is not to be trusted
Oracle is a different beast[1]. If it were any other company, I might agree with you. But I just don't think I'd ever touch anything Oracle makes with a 10' pole except under duress. It's better to do the work up front of just going with the alternative than risk getting pulled into that particular tar baby. --- 1. this video
Cited as source for Oracle closing OpenSolaris development
It's called a bait and switch. Regarding this parent edit: > If you're going to argue it is a "bait and switch", that implies intent to deceive. Do you think that was the plan? Release the first version in 2007 and then wait 18 years and pull the ol switcheroo? Whether they had nefarious intentions from the get go is irrelevant. Oracle closed the once open source Open Solaris, stating at first that it will merely make real time development private just like Android. This was widely condemned, despite there being no intention to pull off a switcheroo when it was open sourced. > We will no longer distribute source code for the entirety of the Solaris operating system in real-time this video
“This is the video and timestamp where Bryan Cantrill goes off about how awful oracle is. It's kinda famous around here.”
Timestamp of the famous Cantrill rant about Oracle
This is the video and timestamp where Bryan Cantrill goes off about how awful oracle is. It's kinda famous around here. this video Find more discussion about it by searching for "oracle lawn mower"
Ah yes, famed billionaire Larry Ellison, 98% owner of the Hawaiian Island of Lānaʻi, who you famously should not anthropomorphisize [1][2] who has proposed using AI on mass surveillance cameras so that ‘citizens will be on their best behavior’[3] is definitely not into authoritarian government. He's totally not known as being an authoritarian CEO, with financhill describing his reign as CEO: > Of these four leadership styles, Larry Ellison’s style is decidedly autocratic. [4]. He may be a Jew, and the holocaust may be the worst thing the Nazis did, but it wasn't the only bad thing about their reign. [1] link [2] this video [3] link [4] link
“the classic "Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison.”
Classic lawnmower quote with timestamp
the classic "Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don’t anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn - you stick your hand in there and it’ll chop it off, the end. You don’t think "oh, the lawnmower hates me" – lawnmower doesn’t give a shit about you, lawnmower can’t hate you. Don’t anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don’t fall into that trap about Oracle." — Bryan Cantrill at about 34-39 minutes in: [ this video ]
> Any large company with half-way competent legal counsel is going to tell their employees not to say, "our goal is to crush our competitors, dominate the market, and hear the lamentation of their women." Instead they will tell their employees to focus on making life better for their customers. The lawn mower would like to have a word with you: < this video >
What is actually funny was after watching the show was .. huh, this was interesting .. but if the worst nuclear disaster we have has about a few hundred direct deaths, and a few thousand indirect .. with other health complications to some tens of thousands. Then compared to the respiratory illness related deaths caused by burning fossil fuels NOW and all the future wars and deaths and ecosystem collapses caused by climate change is absolutely nothing. Now I have read quite a few books on nuclear disasters before and was aware of the fact that the megaton explosion was not true. So I may not be a representative example of how people reacted to the show. What was scary to me was the relatively accurate representation of the behavior of the soviet brass. I even found their representation quite mild. And as we see in Ukraine these days, nothing has changed, russians have zero regard for civilians, nuclear power plants are being endangered with shelling, maternity wards are being bombed, bread lines are bombed. Post-soviet mafia does not care about anything but their own kleptocracy and looting. Every time I think about this I get reminded the Fork Yeah! talk by bcantrill. this video "An open mind is completely wasted on russians" "The lawnmower does not care"
